Michael and Diana - Did They or Didn't They

I will start by saying that I am not a Diana Ross fan.  But I don't get the impression from reading "Moonwalker" that MJ saw her as old, wrinkled, and insane looking.  During the 1970’s/1980’s, Diana was still at the height of her powers.  Michael Jackson, a star in his own right, was young, impressionable, and probably a bit horny.  And by the time they worked on “The Wiz,” Michael was a young adult.  Maybe somewhere along the way, the time was right and ripe for something to happen between the two of them.  When Michael penned “Moonwalker,” (1988) it sounded to me that he had possibly been crazy in love with Diana during those years:  “I’m crazy about her.  She was my mother, my lover, my sister all combined in one amazing person” (page 69).  And he also said, “She’s such a beautiful, talented woman. . . . I love her very much.  I have always loved her very much.”  Top that off with the fact that, after his own mother, he entrusted Diana most to care for his beloved children in the event that the worst came to pass. Do I think Michael “tapped that?”  My best guess is probably, yes.  If they didn’t do it, they probably both wanted to in the worst way.  But a more interesting question for me is what kind of relationship was it?  To answer that question, I decided to analyze the book, “Moonwalker” using pop psychology and theatrical body language techniques.  This is purely my own speculation and I make no claims to supporting facts or science.  

If you peruse the book, “Moonwalker”, you will find that of all the female images in the book, the face of Diana Ross appears more than any other—a total of four times.  Of those four pictures, I chose two that struck me as most worthy of study.  Near the center of the book, there is a group picture of the artists of “We Are the World” (top photo).  In the front row, Michael clasps hands with Kim Carnes and Diana Ross.  Kim may as well not have been present for all the attention he paid to her--zero.  Michael casts a sidelong glance at Diana and smiles a deep, sincere smile (one that involves all the muscles of the face).  His eyes seem to search her face for approval.  Rather than looking him directly in the eyes, Diana’s eyes are cast downward, but she seems to be drawing his hand closer to her body as a physical expression that that she is granting him the approval that he seeks.  This lack of eye contact while  drawing his had closer indicates her dominance over him.  It also speaks to a reticence to make the nature of their relationship public (“Keep it in the closet”).  This relationship is repeated in their hands and intertwined fingers.  His hand is beneath hers, so that she controls the manner in which he makes contact with her body.

Now let’s take a look at at the bottom photo (page 171 of “Moonwalker”).  I am sorry, but here she looks like a woman who just had an orgasm before this shoot.  Her head is tilted back and inclined toward Michael, indicating some feeling of intimacy and also that he is the source of some pleasure and happiness for her.  When the head is tilted backward, the front of the neck, a very vulnerable part of the human body is exposed.  Michael on the other hand stares straight ahead, appearing more dazed than happy.  Perhaps it has occurred to him that the feelings he has for this woman will never be completely reciprocated.  His arm encircles her waist in a loving, protective gesture.  However, she does not rely upon his gesture of love, as shown by the fact that she in turn wraps her left arm around her own waist, above Michael's arm, and tucks her hand beneath his arm.  Placing a hand beneath another person’s arm is a perfect set up position for the hand to push against that arm and fling it aside.  This gesture reveals that she has put up a barrier between them and that she is ultimately her own protector.  She allows him a limited access to her and she feels that she cannot totally surrender to him.  Her arm rests above his arm, again showing which partner is superior in the relationship.  

I think that may have been a first love for him.  After all, she was the woman who showed him an entirely new world that he never before dreamed existed.  It would have been easy for him to fall for her and it may have offered the opportunity for a young man to engage in a little experimentation.  I think that she may have encouraged him, shamelessly used him, his body, then tossed him aside.   It must have been very flattering for her to have such a beautiful and loving boy toy.  We know it felt like crap for him.  

I know most people hate her, but really be honest, what do y’all think went on?

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Angel-watcher, I clicked in here and was greeted with American Psychiatric Association journal article.  Girl you are on it!  After reading Janni and Suz's comments on the other thread immediately followed by this one, I was laid out on the sofa!  I am rolling at some of the gems:  "Insane looking?"  Come on y'all!  Just...stop!

As an aside, I used to be a huge Kim Carnes fan.  I wonder what happened to her?  Yes, Michael does seem to have eyes only for her.  What an incredibly sexy look on his face.  Mon Dieu!  He could take me right now!

I appreciated your analysis of the body language, especially in the second picture.  It is difficult to tell where his left arm and hand are.  Is it possible he has them wrapped around her and her left hand is clasping hers under all that fabric of her blouse?  It is just a thought.  I have seen this pic before, but it is difficult to tell.  Diana does, indeed, look like a woman in the midst of afterglow.  Michael, on the other hand, looks not dazed, but rather sad.  It's as if, he does what he has to do to make her happy, yet his own (emotional, perhaps physical) needs go unmet.  He knew the relationship was rather unbalanced (almost one-sided), yet he couldn't help himself; he was madly in love.   This is how I imagined (or, well know) their relationship to have been.  He always carried a torch for Diana.  She was his one true love, not that other gal. (I'm picking a fight )

My answer is yes i believe without a doubt that Miss Ross deflowered young Michael. Its so obvious that the chemistry between them was strong. I mean he adored that woman and was heartbroken when she married Arne Neiss that he refused to attend her wedding. And the part about it being morally wrong i disagree with that statement because Michael was an adult man and he didnt seem to be the least bit psychologically affected by it. In fact i believe he enjoyed every second of his and Diana's tryst because he was always was affectionate towards her . Besides its not like Michael was a baby anymore he was  A GROWN MAN WITH A GROWN MAN'S BODY AND MOST OF ALL GROWN MAN NEEDS.

I like Diana Ross  Clearly I would not have her in my avatar if I didn't. So I like to think they hit it off together. But your second analysis I wouldn't put too much importance into. I believe you were describing a picture of a photoshoot. So the photographer could have easily positioned them that way for the photo. And Michael was probably embarrassed to show that type of intimacy in public. I mean if he was embarrassed to sing Lady in my Life, I wouldn't doubt that he would be embarrassed being photographed with his arms around her waist in an intimate portrait.

But on the other hand, she probably did just see him as a son. So if she was uninterested, then that would be the reason. You know, she probably saw Little Mike every time she saw him, so that may have been a turn off. Although, there was some heat in that clip when she called Michael sexy .

"Rather than looking him directly in the eyes, Diana’s eyes are cast downward, but she seems to be drawing his hand closer to her body as a physical expression that that she is granting him the approval that he seeks."

^^^Ooo that sounds like a straight up romance novel girl :-)

I think Diana looked insane even at the height of her carrer, just btw

I have no doubt in my mind that Michael loved Diana as more than a friend. But I also belive their whole relationship was in his head, as he said so himself, and therefor he was chocked when she married and he had to face reality. I'm sure Diana knew about his affection towards her, but I don't think she felt the same. I'm sure she probably let him on because she didn't want to hurt his feelings, but in my mind, that was it. It couldn't have been easy for her seeing someone who she once viewed as someone close to a son, developing feelings for her. How do you react to that? She would have known how sensitive he was so you don't just blurt out: "Get a grip, I don't feel the same way!" to someone like him.

And Michael may have had the body of a grown man, but in no way did he have the mentality and maturity and that makes the age difference between him and her way bigger than 16 years.

And the "lover" part in Moonwalker... I'm not putting that much into it. He once stated that he was in love with Fred Astaire and as far as I know, they didn't end up together ... Michael had a way of exaggerating...
And on a nother note, viewing someone as both mother, lover and sisiter is just nasty (if anything happened between them that is) and indicates that not only is she a mother and sister, but she is a mother and sister that he sleeps with or makes love to... *watch out... Projectile vomiting*

Tholstrup wrote:  "I have no doubt in my mind that Michael loved Diana as more than a friend. But I also belive their whole relationship was in his head, as he said so himself, and therefor he was chocked when she married and he had to face reality. I'm sure Diana knew about his affection towards her, but I don't think she felt the same."

^^^Keep telling yourself that, girl.  I know it makes you feel better.  I think he made that statement down the road about it being all in his head to save face and to rescue Diana's reputation.  Afterall, the public suspected, but would have seriously frowned upon her being involved with him precisely because of the age difference, the fact that she had known him since his childhood, and the fact that he lived with her and she basically raised him for a spell.  The whole affair smacked of quasi-incest and cradle-robbing for more than a few people.

@mikeshotgirl, if--and that's a big if--there was a physical affair, many people believe it may have begun earlier than you are thinking it did.  Remember, she knew him from childhood onwards.  That is one of the largest sources of controversy with this topic.

In some ways, yes, Michael was still child-like.  In others, I think he was wise beyond his years.  I think he loved Diana with a purity and fierceness because he was so young and unjaded; first love is often the strongest.

I'm actually more accepting of the thought of the two of them together than any of the other women who you KNOW I have a problem with... I think it's because Diana and MJ's relationship was so nasty and wrong. The relationships he may have had with other women wouldn't have been wrong, but normal, and that's what I can't stand...

If I could tell the story of their relationship, it would go like this :


The beginning they started dating. Pay attention to that kiss now. She wasn't afraid to call Michael her date. Oolalala. Sorry Tholstrup.







Okay. So then came the heartbreak when she married. He is so pissed in the beginning. And check out 0:46. He staring at her hard.

 

What a blast from the past!  Look at how healthy Whitney looks!  Julian Lennon, Shiela E., Kim Carnes!  How long has it been since they were relevant?  Did I spy Johnny Cash and Teddy Pendergrass?  Was that DeBarge?  LOL!  Wow!

Oooh, yes!  He looked hella pissed in the beginning.  If you look at 0:19 you can see the tiniest flash of anger.  I love it!  I love angry Mike!  Boy he was staring hard wasn't he?  Did he check out her arse when he got up on stage?  Methinks he did!  I was ROTFL when they all started singing, because you can plainly tell he was wishing the rest of them would just evaporate leaving him and her alone.  Oh, this is so telling!

I think he was eyeing that horrible dress she was wearing... Michael knew fashion road-kill when he saw it

BUT, no matter what happened between them and if she infact led him on while canoodeling with Berry Gordy and then later went and married someone else and broke his heart, I think that was very wrong of her and not nice at all... In my mind, she did that intentionally... Popped his cherry and then said "bye bye now"! Diana likes the attention and being in the spotlight, that's obvious to even a blind person, and I think she knew that Michael was getting way bigger than her, even bigger than her hair, and she did not like that... So she moved on to a relationship where she would always be the (annoying) star...

So... Even if they never humped or even if they did, I think we can all agree that she used him for a while and then threw him aside. I mean, he seemed surprised that she suddenly married so I doubt she even told him.. And THAT is mainly why I don't like her... Her old ass hurt my Michael!

Bleh Tholstrup. Stop hating  You gotta accept that he had a real relationship with at least one of these women

Well hold up now Annie.  If there was a relationship, it was a tortured and star-crossed one.

Not the hair again!  (I'm snickering...you are SO wrong)

Angel-watcher- I LOVED the analysis of the body language.  Yes, a photographer can arrange a shoot- but you can still see little nuances of the subjects and their relationship.

PJ- Yeah, YOU keep telling yourself that she was the love of his life.  She might have been the unhealthy obession of his life.  

He was her toy.  I think she cared for him like you care for the newest toy in the toystore you just HAVE to have.  And if you are in a position to, you will have it- to play with it, and to show it off...  That is how I see the "relationship." Add to that that she acted in some kind of motherly role for so long- and the whole thing just gives me the creeps.  This whole thing leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

He had a major crush on her- she showed him a whole new world. He was very much into glamor and illusion- and I believe his "love" for Diana for all about glamor and illusion.  And I think part of him figured this out, while another part held on.  

Psychologically, I believe this relationship was very damaging for Michael, and explains a lot of his later relationship issues.


LOL- Janni- I am still loving at the "she looked insane" comment.

But to answer the question the thread poses: Yes, I believe they did.  ANd I believe Katherine knew- which explains her distaste for Diana.  And this might also possibly account for her absence not only from the memorial, but also from his funeral (whereas the "other lady" was invited by the family, was allowed inside the crypt, and invited to the family dinner afterwards..hm....wonder if Mama Katherine knew who the real love of his life was ))

Well, I totally agree on the reason why Diana was absent.  I also think she didn't care to be there, which really disappoints me.  Even Debbie skulked around on the street outside the Staples Center.  I still think Diana was the love of his life.  I am totally NOT saying that love was a healthy or appropriate love, just that he felt it strong and long....okay, my mind just went to another thread...um, where was I?

Uh, PJ--we know exactly which thread your mind went to.

@Tholstrup - Yes, she did look crazy--especially with all that hair.  It reminded me of a French movie I once saw where all the inmates took over an 18th century insance asylum.  We could never figure out where it would stop.  One of my friends used to wear a button that said, "Big Hair Scares Me."  He bought that button because of Miss Ross.

You all have good points in what you see about this relatioship, whether we like it or not.  Personally, I think that Michael really loved Diana.  I think Diana was feeling her Cheerios.  Diana got the first chance to pop the cherry and I think she jumped at the chance.  IMHO, she was just that kind of girl.  (Hey, time to confess, I would have jumped at it too, but at least I would have been younger,  springier, and not a mother figure at the time.  And I did not have big and crazy hair.)  That is why the family was shocked that she was named as guardian of Michael's children, why she was not at either of the memorial services, why we still don't know the right of secession for guardianship of the children if (heaven forbid) if something should happen to Katherine.  For the Jackson's, and especially Katherine, I think Diana  became "that woman."


I think Michael told the truth about the whole thing in his book and in the order in which event occurred.  At first, when they moved to California, he was a child and  she mothered him.  When he became an adult, she actually became  his lover.  After he saw that he could never possess her in the way that he desired and she chose other men (who could help her career, cover her indescretions, or guarantee  her a life of extreme wealth), he came to regard her as a sister.  All of this blows my mind.  And I thought Oedipus Rex was complicated.  Maybe he was damaged by this (as suggested by still his and Tholstrup) and his life afterwards became the unfulfilled search for a woman who could be mother-lover-sister.  

For those  of you who have a problem with  Diana Ross and MJ--is the problem the age difference or is it because he first became acquainted with her as a mother figure?  Or is it some other reason?  (I am ignoring the issue of whether or not DR is a really nice person.  My best guess is no.)   I hate to  give personal examples, but I once had a long term relationship with a man who was closer to the age of my parents--the difference between our ages  was 17 years, and it really did not seem to raise any eyebrows.  But I had not known him when I was 8 and he was 25,  and he had never been a father figure to me.  How did they work that out in the movie "Benjamin Button" (which I never bothered to see)--knowing a person as a child then later becoming the lover of the person after she became an adult?  If you have been around for awhile, or look at Oxygen or Lifetime--or some such channel-- late at night, there was a similar problem in the 80's movie,  "The Thornbirds."
 

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Why do big hair intimidate yall so much? It's just hair. It's not like it's gonna jump off her head and kill you. Is this better?



And why the grudge towards her? We're just speculating; we don't know what really went on between them. Diana Ross didn't tell her side and probably never will. They remained very good friends even later in life. I remember in 2007 or 2008  her son Evan was doing an interview stating how he was working closely with Michael Jackson on some record. I mean that's kinda proof that she remained close with him even in his later years if he had relationships with her children. And she wasn't the first woman to break his heart. She couldn't force herself to be in love with him. Yall know she was a diva....Michael knew she was a diva. She was very into herself. Michael just didn't know how to pick them.

And sorry if I sound a bit angry in my post. You guys are just ragging hard on her. I mean she came from Motown....so she was destined to have one of those Vh1 Behind the Music type of lives. Fame, fortune, drama, downhill, recovery...you know how it goes.  

ETA: And yeah Michael saw her as a mother, but I don't think she was that maternal to freak me out. She didn't raise Michael; Katherine did. Michael just stayed with Diana every now and again.

No, angel watcher- it is not the age difference.  

 I work a lot with people who have been sexually abused and this has that slant to it.  She was in a position of power and I am not so sure he was of legal age when she became his "sexual mentor."  Plus, there is the incestuous slant- I know they were not biologically related, but that emotional bond was there.  

So, no, this just rings all the wrong alarm bells in me.  Maybe I am overly sensitive to the topic due to what I see and hear every day- but that is my reason for having a BIG problem with the whole thing.

I've always had a problem with big hair . I just never understood it... I know it was a hit in the 80's or whenever, but when it goes out of style, cut it off!! Just like the mullet... Who in their right mind, besides rednecks, have mullets these days??
And yes, that picture of her looks much much better. And she looks younger... So I guess the big frizzy hair due made her look older in my eyes...

When I had turned my computer of last night, I also thought about that whole toy thing... She liked to be the center of attention and it would bring her attention if she paraded around everywhere with the new and upcoming star. His success quickly became waaaay bigger than hers and so ended the fun...

And all the things BJ said about her having the power and using it over him is also something I agree with. I think it was love from Michael's part, but I think it was only a need for confirmation from her side. She knew she was getting old and being with an infant ()  made her think she still had it. I have no doubt she loved him, but I don't think it was the same love he had for her... She wasn't "in love" with him. And that is why it became so complicated between them. I don't think she was ever upfront with him about that, but instead used it to her own advantage, and then one day "Uhm btw, I'm getting married..Toodles!"

There's just so many things I don't like about her, and it doesn't always have to have something to do with Michael. She just gives me the creeps... Especially her voice in The Wiz. That was a big overdose for my eardrums... I think it was a huge mistake to cast her as Dorothy and she ruined the movie, which was a shame 'cause Michael was great in it... And FYI Diana, cutting of the tumbleweed doesn't take 20 years of your looks, kay?!

Can't remember who said it, but yes, I can easliy NOT accept that Mike  had a relationship with any other woman... Except LMP... Can't get enough of their lovelife